Saturday, August 08, 2009

David's Comment and the Thread

I have lots to write about. I wish that I just had more time to write. Maybe, I should write about what's currently on my mind. I didn't write last night because I got distracted watching some how to videos on BJJ. I used something that I saw in the video that surprised Taz which was pretty cool. Instead of being on bottom in north south position, I went onto my back instead.

To response to David's comment two posts below, I asked Roberto about how one can be a better practitioner than a better style. I always thought that when I was in Goju-Ryu. I even asked him about kata. He doesn't not believe in kata. He said that David should go to a BJJ school in Spokane, ask for a match, and then see who wins. I know anyone who practices BJJ will in anyone who does karate or any other striking art. Sooner or later, the BJJ person will take them down and submit them. I asked Roberto why they teach it if it's a lesser art. He said just to make money. I realize that any average karateka can take on the average Joe on the street if they trained correctly. Most TMA schools don't teach self-defense anyways because of crappy teachers.

I agree that most fights will end up on the ground. Karateka just has to learn how to get up on their feet. Roberto said that BJJ is older than any other martial arts. I told him that I heard that it's a relatively young art. He said that the Samurai used Jiu-Jitsu when he and his opponent didn't have weapons. I asked him about how one has to worry about people's buddies on the street. He said that Samurai used Akido when when their opponent had a weapon and he didn't. Roberto said that he could take them down, break their arm, then worry about the other guy. I can see that because a few weeks ago when we were sparring, Roberto caught my hand, forced me down to the ground by wrist lock, and armbarred me very quickly. He probably knows other ways how to break someone's arm in that position.

In that thread that I talked about two posts below, someone mentioned that the average Joe could have some wrestling or football skills. Both are trained to take someone down. Most people aren't trained how to fight standing up. BJJ can be more applicable in the street than karate. I was thinking about how a woman can get attacked verses a guy. It seems like most guys end up fighting when they are in a bar or any type of drug is involved especially alcohol. Thus, they start in a standup position. Anyone could be mugged in the street. However, it's so much easier to give what they want than to fight for the money or jewelery. BJJ is very applicable to women because lots of men like to rape women. In those type of situations, it's necessary to learn how to learn how to fight on the ground. Roberto said that one doesn't have to learn how to strike to defend oneself.

Now about the thread. I can see why that David would say he doesn't like MMA'ers have big egos and think that they are better than everyone else. I see that lots of UFC guys has really big egos and talk smack all the time. I don't like that. People should love, be kind, and considerate to other people. I just much rather have a fighter be confident in their abilities, but not talk bad about other people. They could say that one is better fighter than the other I guess, but not in a derogatory way. Of course that offended the owner of the school which David commented about. He said that his fighters can defend themselves better than David and his students. I pretty much agree with him because cage fighting makes them well rounded fighters. However, I don't know if they know how to punch correctly without any gloves.

I agree with the owner that it's better to learn how to fight than not do it at all. He certainly impressed me when he said that his teacher is Royce Gracie. If that's he's real teacher, he knows what he's talking about. I disagree how the owner and another person handled David. They though David was lying when he punched Levi in the groin when Levi jumped into guard from standing position. I can see how that happen if Levi didn't hold on and David didn't fall with Levi. However, they just dismissed the whole idea saying it's impossible. I disagree with David when he said that Levi is a pretty credible grappler.

OK, OK. I agree that at some point experience does count with the person who does BJJ. One has to be taught effective ground techniques to win against anyone. I know that I'm much better ground fighter than standup. I may be able to take any one down and submit them if they didn't have any ground experience with a few months of training. It probably wouldn't matter if they had a black belt in karate if I got him or her on the ground. I just don't know how I would get them there because I suck at takedowns. I would just have to attack and commit 100 percent on the takedown and not fear getting hit. It's a lot less intimidating when one has a helmet on, so I don't have to worry about getting hit in the face.

I have to see Levi's grappling skills to make a full assessment. I didn't have anything to judge from when he taught us. I know that he was into more MMA style of grappling than BJJ. Hopefully, I can spar with him when I get into Spokane during the break. That would be so cool!!! It would be really nice to see everyone in the old dojo again. I forget where Levi learned how to grapple. I'm pretty sure that someone else other than Sensei Villa taught Levi. I was under the impression that Levi taught Sensei Villa and others how to grapple. Sensei Villa learned Judo as a kid, then was taught Goju-Ryu probably as a teen. I know that he was really good at tournaments as a young adult. I didn't hear him training in any kind of Jiu-Jistu.

I totally agree with Matt W who posted on this thread. "But it doesn’t change the fact that the sport training methodology, which is developed around principles of resistance, dynamic movement (compare focus mitt work with kata) and hard sparring tends to produce good fighters (in their respective ranges). Such training develops fighting fundamentals such as timing, movement, distancing, positional dominance in grappling, the ability to hit hard and take hard hits, etc. And those fighting fundamentals are just as applicable on the street as on the mat. And (I imagine here is where we are really going to disagree!) I don’t think those fundamentals can be developed without hard sparring and fully resistant training."

I love this quote from a guy who commented on this thread. I thought it was pretty funny. "Maybe all MMA fighters should bow to each other, yell loudly, and bounce around like kangaroos as they throw their straight punches and try to use the death touch on each other...." After these quotes, TMA and MMA started insulting each other especially David and the owner of the school. Finally, David apologized at the end of the thread, but the owner never apologized back. I don't want to post on that thread because of the insults and somewhat heated debating.

This post's point is to discuss how BJJ is better than karate at self defense and fighting. I somewhat don't like saying that because it says that I know all about Karate and BJJ. I'm not saying that I'm better or know more than others either. All I know is my experience with BJJ and Goju-Ryu and how they compare against each other. I'm willing to trust Roberto on this one too. I was thinking about the dirty tricks that a karateka can do during a street fight. One who does BJJ can do those tricks too, probably just as well as a karateka. I don't say it's better for personal enjoyment. I know that Supergroup loves Kata. I know that David loves to theorize and philosophize about it. He loves to post about abstract things which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It seems like karate is more of a religion to him.

5 comments:

ZenHG said...

Lizzie,
I have had matches with practitioners of BJJ. In some cases I won, in some cases I lost. It is the same in Goju Ryu, where I have also had matches, and my older brother is a former national matt wrestling champion - Matt Hughes beat Hoyce Gracie with simple American Matt Wrestling and a little patience.
I used to roll against my brother all the time.
Does this mean one is better than the other? Not necessarily. It depends on how long one has training and the amount of effort they put into it. Everyone has an opinion.
I have nothing against BJJ, but personally I stick to Karate because it is more suited to me. Doesn't matter what other people think, if they want to challenge me, they know where to find me.
Also, you want to know how much money I make teaching? I make about $20 a class.
The classes at the local BJJ school cost anywhere from $100 to $200 a month. That is way more than even Villa Sensei charges for lessons.

Good luck, I will see how your development comes.

Lizzie said...

Ya, everyone has an opinion. I think it's more suited for me than Goju-Ryu. I just have fallen in love with BJJ. I enjoy myself better when I roll than when I work on MMA. I agree it depends how much effort they put into it too. I heard that the BJJ school charges $80 dollars a month. Thanks.

ZenHG said...

Re-reading your post Lizzie, it seems you operate under many assumptions.
Firstly, I don't know if your teacher got his styles transposed, or if he just doesn't know his history.
Aikido was not practiced at the time of the Samurai, it was invented in the 20th Century by a man named Moreihei Ueshiba O-Sensei and is practiced by Police all over the world.

Secondly, the type of Jujitsu that the Samurai practiced did not emphasize ground fighting.
Ground fighting was not emphasized until several Jujitsu practitioners challenged the Kodokan (Judo) to some matches and kept losing.
They developed a different strategy and started laying down on the ground straight away and fighting from the ground, the Judoka did not know what to do and subsequently lost.
Judo incorporated this into their training and called it Ne Waza or ground fighting, this was in the early part of the 20th Century just prior to WWII.
So Ne Waza was not used in the time of the Samurai.
If a Samurai had done ground fighting on the battlefield they would have been cut to pieces.
This was not their way, I suggest studying history and the Samurai prior to making assumptions (not to be rude, but I dunno if your Teacher has given much thought to this).

BJJ originated with a Japanese man who went to Brazile and fought matches there.
He defeated Gracie who became his student, but this was not in Jujitsu.
It was Pre-WII Judo that the man taught Gracie after Kano had incorporated and refined Ne Waza.
Gracie and the subsequent generations of Gracies further refined the system for matches against fellow Brazilians. It was not created in the street, but in the ring, where, indeed, 95% to 100% of fights end up on the ground.

Certainly you can hold to your opinions, but opinion without study is not really an informed opinion.
Also, the average joe in the street is who you will be defending against, not a trained Martial Artist, while I agree that it is best to prepare for anything, just go to a bar, sit there, you don't have to get a drink or even become involved - just watch.
Fighting is a very different beast than competition or cage fighting, I have been in the nitty-gritty and it isn't pretty, no amount of statistics can predict it, it is chaotic and unpredictable. It does not fit into a neat little box.

I learned about violence first-hand, unfortunately, with a very abusive stepfather, to some very rough times growing up in some very bad places.
I have the scars to prove it. In those encounters I have only ever ended up on the ground twice.
Both times was a mess, and both times I was scraped by cement, one time a sharp rock even jabbed into my elbow.
You might say that was due to lack of understanding, but I won both times and have training in Matt Wrestling and BJJ, so try moving around on that like you would a matt, it is a completely different ballgame.

Ask any Cop or Soldier, they will tell you to stay on your feet in such an encounter because going to the ground is suicide in self-defense.

ZenHG said...

Also, this is the price taken from BJJSPOKANE.COM for adults.
Adults - 95.00 / Month

I was not paying anything at Villa Sensei's Dojo and Chinen is still only $60 a month, my original teacher did not charge a dime, he only asked donations to pay the Dojo bills and keep the doors open, and this was not mandatory. So the whole idea about people teaching Karate just for money does not hold up.
Certainly some do, that is true, but BJJ is no different.

slideyfoot said...

In short, what makes a style effective is the training methodology. There needs to be progressive resistance, in order to pressure test the techniques.

Without that feedback mechanism, there is no way of knowing whether or not what you're learning actually works: that's why sparring is essential when seeking efficacy.

BJJ epitomises that training methodology, along with styles like boxing, muay thai, wrestling, judo, SAMBO etc. Matt Thornton has conceptualised this as 'alivness': he has a long piece on the topic here, and his student Cane Prevost has a concise version here.


If you're interested in the history of BJJ, I've got a long post on the topic here. I've tried to make that as objective as possible, by drawing on various sources, making sure to reference them.